This is really important. I’m hoping someone can provide a simpler, plain-language summary conclusion of this post. The utility of this would be to (quickly) make the point(s) and thereby entice those that can understand the ramifications of the observations described here to dig deeper.
Ok, my brain tells me this was written in my native language but that’s as far as I could get. Stratospherically over my head but it’s more like “yeah, what HE said”. Go Geert!
Beautiful essay. Thank you Dr. Vanden Bossche. Dr. Eric Berne, 'What do you say after you say hello?, 1972' pp 407-408 cautions against Procrustean and Unicorn errors in sociology and psychology. Thanks again for exposing this so clearly.
Thank you! I thought I was getting a leg up reading all these studies. But I'm increasingly concerned that I cannot trust the conclusions at all. Fortunately I have heroes like you helping me learn so I can be a better critical thinker. I'm pretty good with the statistics games they play, but when they misinterpret the science, I depend on minds and courage like yours.
If immunologists are still under the impression that T-cell cross reactivity with SARS-COV-2 is automatically protective across the board vs pathogenic by host's antigenic imprinting then they should go ahead and explain why Pfizer's trial in kids ages 2-4 failed to elicit the "neutralizing" antibodies (the equivalent of stock market pump and dump for vaccine regulators) but was able to in children aged 6months to 2 years.
If I use Prof. Vanden Bossche's insights about innate immune training and effectors being the primary modulators of infection and severity across the board:
I can see that kids born just before the pandemic have adequate NK cell/Innate immune training to deal with SARS-COV-2 like pathogens. Their older siblings do as well but the exposure is far too acute due to higher interaction density with peers who have vaccinal adaptive immune response with high enough shedding that they can't secrete innate immune cells fast enough to prevent infection.
This doesn't explain why 6months to 2 years (everyone born after the pandemic started) elicit an adaptive immune response to vaccine. So we can use an additional assumption -
The inherited antibodies from vaccinated or exposed mothers is being recalled upon vaccination.
If those assumptions are true - This would imply that 2-4 age group are the last set of people on earth who do not have a specific immune response to SARS-COV-2 likely because they never had a productive Coronavirus infection of any kind in their life yet. Their immune response is intact. And perhaps, COVID-19 is primarily a kind of antibody dependent enhancement of previous coronavirus infections that vaccines make worse for those who have the wrong MHC.
If I understand correctly, in a natural pandemic (ie no vaccine) the downwards trend of the case curve is caused by people's innate immune system short lived antibodies? Causing temporary herd immunity.
I think you also said that the vaccinated innate immune system is compromised from the vaccine.
With Omicron, in highly vaccinated regions, the viral spread won't be stopped till herd immunity is reached?
Dear Geert, may I again thank you for all your work you do.
In light of the new variant being identified deltacron, a recombinant virus, omicron and delta. How would the immune system treat this especially vaccinees. Would it be treated as a new virus? Or would they have issues re antigenic sin. Would this raise the issue of ADE. As vaccine free, I assume that my immune system would treat it as it has with other variants. Thank you
Totally on the mark. Thank you once again Geert. I am a good friend of Kate Petrich in Seattle. While Kate is super busy with work, I follow your postings and pass them along. I had a serious case of Covid before they were testing for it in February 2020. Had all 11 symptoms now recognized by the CDC plus a few more. After the 3 months I needed to recover from loss of taste and smell plus fatigue, I was and have been good to go with NO ILLNESS of any kind since then. My work, since fall of 2020, keeps me interacting with the public and yet, I remain free of any covid. Today is January 21, 2022 and still good. I volunteered giving my Covid plasma until March 2021 and to stay in the program had to always have HIGH ANTIBODIES which I did. Since then, I periodically get a pcr test randomly every few months and it is always negative. It goes without saying that I will, in this situation, not get vaccinated as I do not believe that I need to as I have innate, acquired immunity due to serious infection- no hospitalization cause was so early just before the pandemic was made known. Luckily, all my friends who saw me through the illness, totally support me in this position. A few of them have had "break-through" infections post vaccination. A partial solution at best in my opinion.
I understand that Singapore did a study which showed that immunity to the original SARS infection was still present 17 years later. Why are those who have had SARS Cov -2 not developing a similar lifelong immunity? Many governments, such as Singapore, are only admitting that they have immunity for about 180 days and basing the view entirely on the antibodies being present as they are immediately post infection. What is the difference in the long term immunity of the two viruses?
Love it when you blow them out of the water! Didn't understand a word but still enjoyed the read.
This is really important. I’m hoping someone can provide a simpler, plain-language summary conclusion of this post. The utility of this would be to (quickly) make the point(s) and thereby entice those that can understand the ramifications of the observations described here to dig deeper.
Can such a statement be written?
Ok, my brain tells me this was written in my native language but that’s as far as I could get. Stratospherically over my head but it’s more like “yeah, what HE said”. Go Geert!
Beautiful essay. Thank you Dr. Vanden Bossche. Dr. Eric Berne, 'What do you say after you say hello?, 1972' pp 407-408 cautions against Procrustean and Unicorn errors in sociology and psychology. Thanks again for exposing this so clearly.
Thank you! I thought I was getting a leg up reading all these studies. But I'm increasingly concerned that I cannot trust the conclusions at all. Fortunately I have heroes like you helping me learn so I can be a better critical thinker. I'm pretty good with the statistics games they play, but when they misinterpret the science, I depend on minds and courage like yours.
If immunologists are still under the impression that T-cell cross reactivity with SARS-COV-2 is automatically protective across the board vs pathogenic by host's antigenic imprinting then they should go ahead and explain why Pfizer's trial in kids ages 2-4 failed to elicit the "neutralizing" antibodies (the equivalent of stock market pump and dump for vaccine regulators) but was able to in children aged 6months to 2 years.
If I use Prof. Vanden Bossche's insights about innate immune training and effectors being the primary modulators of infection and severity across the board:
I can see that kids born just before the pandemic have adequate NK cell/Innate immune training to deal with SARS-COV-2 like pathogens. Their older siblings do as well but the exposure is far too acute due to higher interaction density with peers who have vaccinal adaptive immune response with high enough shedding that they can't secrete innate immune cells fast enough to prevent infection.
This doesn't explain why 6months to 2 years (everyone born after the pandemic started) elicit an adaptive immune response to vaccine. So we can use an additional assumption -
The inherited antibodies from vaccinated or exposed mothers is being recalled upon vaccination.
If those assumptions are true - This would imply that 2-4 age group are the last set of people on earth who do not have a specific immune response to SARS-COV-2 likely because they never had a productive Coronavirus infection of any kind in their life yet. Their immune response is intact. And perhaps, COVID-19 is primarily a kind of antibody dependent enhancement of previous coronavirus infections that vaccines make worse for those who have the wrong MHC.
If I understand correctly, in a natural pandemic (ie no vaccine) the downwards trend of the case curve is caused by people's innate immune system short lived antibodies? Causing temporary herd immunity.
I think you also said that the vaccinated innate immune system is compromised from the vaccine.
With Omicron, in highly vaccinated regions, the viral spread won't be stopped till herd immunity is reached?
Dear Geert, may I again thank you for all your work you do.
In light of the new variant being identified deltacron, a recombinant virus, omicron and delta. How would the immune system treat this especially vaccinees. Would it be treated as a new virus? Or would they have issues re antigenic sin. Would this raise the issue of ADE. As vaccine free, I assume that my immune system would treat it as it has with other variants. Thank you
This actually substantiates you sir:: https://t.me/PeterMcCulloughMD/963 Video on the Omish in America who took on Covid.
Totally on the mark. Thank you once again Geert. I am a good friend of Kate Petrich in Seattle. While Kate is super busy with work, I follow your postings and pass them along. I had a serious case of Covid before they were testing for it in February 2020. Had all 11 symptoms now recognized by the CDC plus a few more. After the 3 months I needed to recover from loss of taste and smell plus fatigue, I was and have been good to go with NO ILLNESS of any kind since then. My work, since fall of 2020, keeps me interacting with the public and yet, I remain free of any covid. Today is January 21, 2022 and still good. I volunteered giving my Covid plasma until March 2021 and to stay in the program had to always have HIGH ANTIBODIES which I did. Since then, I periodically get a pcr test randomly every few months and it is always negative. It goes without saying that I will, in this situation, not get vaccinated as I do not believe that I need to as I have innate, acquired immunity due to serious infection- no hospitalization cause was so early just before the pandemic was made known. Luckily, all my friends who saw me through the illness, totally support me in this position. A few of them have had "break-through" infections post vaccination. A partial solution at best in my opinion.
I understand that Singapore did a study which showed that immunity to the original SARS infection was still present 17 years later. Why are those who have had SARS Cov -2 not developing a similar lifelong immunity? Many governments, such as Singapore, are only admitting that they have immunity for about 180 days and basing the view entirely on the antibodies being present as they are immediately post infection. What is the difference in the long term immunity of the two viruses?
I am so so grateful for your knowledge and your leadership in sharing this vital information. You really are a brilliant and wonderful doctor
I don’t understand the processes Geert describes , but I understand sloppy workmanship and disingenuity
The research is propaganda for the ‘educated’ classes.