"What I meant to say is that the level of impact of ADE (Antibody-Dependent Enhancement) on morbidity and mortality in humans vaccinated against Omicron could be similar to that observed in non-vaccinated chickens contracting Marek. I predict that mass vaccination of humans with imperfect/ leaky C-19 vaccines against Omicron will result in high rates of morbidity and mortality from SARS-CoV-2 in the very vaccinees, especially if treatment protocols keep being disapproved."
My interpretation (Doc can correct me if wrong):
Basically, the leaky 'vaccines' are creating immune-suppressed [AIDS type] patients and as each new 'variant' becomes more contagious and people keep getting repeat-vaccinated/BOOSTED it is causing MORE of their immune systems to become compromised for each new variant. The more the virus learns and adapts how to slip past each new leaky vaccine, a newer more virulent variant will take its place and be deadlier to the vaccinated as their immune systems become further degraded and crippled.
Meanwhile, the average/healthy unvaccinated still have their NORMAL and FULLY intact immune systems in play to deal with any/all variants. BUT, if the new variants can escape ALL immunity of both the vaxxed and unvaxxed, that means everyone is going to get sick a LOT more (never good) but the Vaxxed will not even have their fully functioning immune system to fight even the tiniest cold if they keep vaccinating for every got-dang sniffle/cough/phlegm-wad of a virus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But(!) T-cell exhaustion, oxidative stress from viral replication and dysregulated protein synthesis, and incorrect cytokine signalling and down-regulation can all occur, particularly when people let personal care and nutrition slide.
I wouldn't be against vaccines on principle if honest discourse about the above existed between immunologists and laypeople, not too mention how many immunologists honestly think vaccines are akin to vitamin supplements.
I should add that I am most definitely against vaccines as currently manufactured for most of the world (de facto "anti-vax" as a result). I've heard rumour of adjuvant-free ones in Cuba that have good efficacy with few side-effects, but try getting such a vaccine anywhere else -- and they're still grown on a medium that introduces gene sequences into the vaccinee and (may) cause molecular mimickry and other trouble.
Living vaccine-free has led to a lifetime of great health for me, so not likely to change.
I meant, unvaxxed people like me who have gotten Alpha/Beta/Delta can supposedly get omicron too (not that I care about getting at this point since it's apparently weaker than the previous mutants er strains).
i saw this and was thrilled for my sister who was + with delta in summer. but NOW as of two days ago she has Omicron. Unvaccccc..... so, i agree with Joe (rogan) i think people can get it multiple times.
I don't think so? It'll be interesting to see how far Omicron goes through the vaxxed/unvaxxed population. Hopefully, enough people will wake up and refuse any more [experimental jabs that is].
Personally, I think my body is bored of the 'Rona (not that I'm double-dog daring fate ha[!]).
The unvaccinated recovered will have some immunity. The unvaccinated naive adults will have some cross immunity from lifetime of exposure to other coronaviruses. Unvaccinated children, it will depend on how it mutates. If it stays with ACE2 receptor entry, unvaxxed children will be protected by their low levels of Ace2 receptors. It just won't be able to grab much foothold.
The thing most people (even immunologists!) seem to miss is that our collective concept of virulence is ridiculous. The most destructive pathogen in human history (smallpox) left most victims alive, many never developed symptoms at all, and basic hygiene and sanitation ended its endemic run.
Coronaviruses are weak sauce for those with good habits, D, quercetin, and zinc. Especially true for the young.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7943455/ - There are multiple viral escape mechanisms and different outcomes depending on binding and type of immune response. One issue to consider is the mechanism utilized by the mRNA vaccine does not create a live virus and causes damage via the spike protein prior to immune response. The vaccine for Marek's uses a live virus from what I can tell here - https://www.drugs.com/vet/marek-s-disease-vaccine-hvt.html
The similarity is that both Marek's and Coronavirus are viral infections but the way the MRNA vaccine works is different and so the outcomes are not necessarily the same.
Disclaimer: I'm a data scientist and not a medical expert, so this is just my impression as a lay person. Awaiting a scientific explanation from Dr. Geert.
I think he’s saying native innate immunity can tackle it and render the unvaxxed immune, just like the vaccinated chickens. Thus nature will select against the non immune, aka the vaxxed humans or the unvaxxed chickens.
There can be an ADE like effect with infection in the vaxxed without enhancing viral virulence. The vaxxed would have a rougher time because their adaptive antibodies are a miss and the innate immunity is damaged or not activated early.
The research team found that due to changes in affinity for ACE2, changes in electropotential (becoming more negative), and becoming less stable (the spike legs more easily separated), upon arriving in Europe, Delta had a massive selective advantage over all other variants.
The research concluded that ADE may be a concern for people who received vaccines formulated on the original Wuhan strain spike sequence, and called for the production of vaccines that lack the structurally-conserved ADE-related epitopes.
Since we cannot find the ADE-enhancing motif in the Pfizer mRNA encoded protein, if Dr. Fantini is correct the other dynamics he discussed may prove sufficient to induce ADE. We clearly need more data on this right away.
This is helpful, but why would you predict the effect would happen to the vaccinated in this case when it happened to the unvaccinated for the chickens and Marek’s? I’m sure I just don’t understand the science behind this.
This has concerned me from when the article first came out. I'm still confused. I watch every interview of Geert's so I understand more than I used to. Thanks for the continued clarification.
Based on the sentence concerning the enhanced virulence of virus in unvaccinated chickens the next sentence seems contradictory, unless I’m not understanding him (which is quite likely). So it’s a false conclusion that unvaxxed humans are at greater risk when confronted with the virus?
No one seems to want to answer this question directly. I've been wondering the same thing for quite a while. I'm not a medical professional, but wouldn't a weakened immune system enabling a susceptibility to a Covid-19 variant mean a susceptibility to other pathogens, both viral and bacterial? What happens when a weakened immune system can't fight off pneumonia? Bronchitis? Flu? A toothache or a blood blister? I don't want to believe that such a thing might happen, but I suspect it's going to. Would anyone like to explain why I'm wrong?
Of course, maybe I commented on the wrong question. Are all the vaccinated going to die? I think so. Maybe not all at once, as the human body can take an astounding amount of abuse, but all of the vaccinated will have shortened lifespans and a decreasing quality of life as time progresses.
I would like to hear some discussion re a vaccine-induced weakening of the immune system to other pathogens.
"What I meant to say is that the level of impact of ADE (Antibody-Dependent Enhancement) on morbidity and mortality in humans vaccinated against Omicron could be similar to that observed in non-vaccinated chickens contracting Marek. I predict that mass vaccination of humans with imperfect/ leaky C-19 vaccines against Omicron will result in high rates of morbidity and mortality from SARS-CoV-2 in the very vaccinees, especially if treatment protocols keep being disapproved."
My interpretation (Doc can correct me if wrong):
Basically, the leaky 'vaccines' are creating immune-suppressed [AIDS type] patients and as each new 'variant' becomes more contagious and people keep getting repeat-vaccinated/BOOSTED it is causing MORE of their immune systems to become compromised for each new variant. The more the virus learns and adapts how to slip past each new leaky vaccine, a newer more virulent variant will take its place and be deadlier to the vaccinated as their immune systems become further degraded and crippled.
Meanwhile, the average/healthy unvaccinated still have their NORMAL and FULLY intact immune systems in play to deal with any/all variants. BUT, if the new variants can escape ALL immunity of both the vaxxed and unvaxxed, that means everyone is going to get sick a LOT more (never good) but the Vaxxed will not even have their fully functioning immune system to fight even the tiniest cold if they keep vaccinating for every got-dang sniffle/cough/phlegm-wad of a virus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Phew! Did I make any sense? Brain hurts.
*runs screaming down the madhouse halls*
Not sure if such a thing as escape from natural immunity exists. Innate untrained abs are generalists able to attack all comers..
But(!) T-cell exhaustion, oxidative stress from viral replication and dysregulated protein synthesis, and incorrect cytokine signalling and down-regulation can all occur, particularly when people let personal care and nutrition slide.
I wouldn't be against vaccines on principle if honest discourse about the above existed between immunologists and laypeople, not too mention how many immunologists honestly think vaccines are akin to vitamin supplements.
That’s the other side of the coin, without good nutrition, exercise, healthy weight, and sleep your innate immune system is handicapped
I should add that I am most definitely against vaccines as currently manufactured for most of the world (de facto "anti-vax" as a result). I've heard rumour of adjuvant-free ones in Cuba that have good efficacy with few side-effects, but try getting such a vaccine anywhere else -- and they're still grown on a medium that introduces gene sequences into the vaccinee and (may) cause molecular mimickry and other trouble.
Living vaccine-free has led to a lifetime of great health for me, so not likely to change.
That's what has me scratching my head about 'moronic/omicron'?
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03796-6
Edit: Obviously, it mutated 'itself' *cough* to escape people's immunity who have already beaten Alpha/Beta/Delta?
Not so sure about that as the hospitals are filled with the vaxxed who have not defeated anything
I meant, unvaxxed people like me who have gotten Alpha/Beta/Delta can supposedly get omicron too (not that I care about getting at this point since it's apparently weaker than the previous mutants er strains).
Pretty sure that’s very rare, did you see Professor McCullough on Joe Rogan?
i saw this and was thrilled for my sister who was + with delta in summer. but NOW as of two days ago she has Omicron. Unvaccccc..... so, i agree with Joe (rogan) i think people can get it multiple times.
I don't think so? It'll be interesting to see how far Omicron goes through the vaxxed/unvaxxed population. Hopefully, enough people will wake up and refuse any more [experimental jabs that is].
Personally, I think my body is bored of the 'Rona (not that I'm double-dog daring fate ha[!]).
Thank you for all of your input, Fleur.
Yes, it looks like the vaxxed are twice as likely to get Omicron:
https://igorchudov.substack.com/p/uk-being-vaccinated-doubles-the-risk
We need a new name for 'Marek's' in humans -- why not name this new disease after the guy who created it - 'Fauci'
So, you don't yet see a risk of a Marek's effect for the unvaccinated?
As an unvaccinated person, I'd take my chances with the pathogen over hopping onto the vaccine hamster wheel.
I'm not jabbed either. I just want to understand his assessment of the current risk.
The unvaccinated recovered will have some immunity. The unvaccinated naive adults will have some cross immunity from lifetime of exposure to other coronaviruses. Unvaccinated children, it will depend on how it mutates. If it stays with ACE2 receptor entry, unvaxxed children will be protected by their low levels of Ace2 receptors. It just won't be able to grab much foothold.
The thing most people (even immunologists!) seem to miss is that our collective concept of virulence is ridiculous. The most destructive pathogen in human history (smallpox) left most victims alive, many never developed symptoms at all, and basic hygiene and sanitation ended its endemic run.
Coronaviruses are weak sauce for those with good habits, D, quercetin, and zinc. Especially true for the young.
The very young have very few Ace2 receptors and robust innate immune systems . That's why they don't get C19 unless they are extremely sick already.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7943455/ - There are multiple viral escape mechanisms and different outcomes depending on binding and type of immune response. One issue to consider is the mechanism utilized by the mRNA vaccine does not create a live virus and causes damage via the spike protein prior to immune response. The vaccine for Marek's uses a live virus from what I can tell here - https://www.drugs.com/vet/marek-s-disease-vaccine-hvt.html
The similarity is that both Marek's and Coronavirus are viral infections but the way the MRNA vaccine works is different and so the outcomes are not necessarily the same.
Disclaimer: I'm a data scientist and not a medical expert, so this is just my impression as a lay person. Awaiting a scientific explanation from Dr. Geert.
I think he’s saying native innate immunity can tackle it and render the unvaxxed immune, just like the vaccinated chickens. Thus nature will select against the non immune, aka the vaxxed humans or the unvaxxed chickens.
There can be an ADE like effect with infection in the vaxxed without enhancing viral virulence. The vaxxed would have a rougher time because their adaptive antibodies are a miss and the innate immunity is damaged or not activated early.
That's my reading too.
I had this same question. Thanks for clarifying this.
This seems relevant to the discussion:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7953441/
The research team found that due to changes in affinity for ACE2, changes in electropotential (becoming more negative), and becoming less stable (the spike legs more easily separated), upon arriving in Europe, Delta had a massive selective advantage over all other variants.
The research concluded that ADE may be a concern for people who received vaccines formulated on the original Wuhan strain spike sequence, and called for the production of vaccines that lack the structurally-conserved ADE-related epitopes.
Since we cannot find the ADE-enhancing motif in the Pfizer mRNA encoded protein, if Dr. Fantini is correct the other dynamics he discussed may prove sufficient to induce ADE. We clearly need more data on this right away.
See https://popularrationalism.substack.com/p/study-suggests-that-moderna-and-pfizer?r=ubp8z&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web for more analysis of the study
This is helpful, but why would you predict the effect would happen to the vaccinated in this case when it happened to the unvaccinated for the chickens and Marek’s? I’m sure I just don’t understand the science behind this.
Yeah I have the same question.
This is exactly what Dr. Mike Yeadon said to me several months ago.
Thank you!
Nailed it
Thank you for responding to this. I had the same need for clarification.
This has concerned me from when the article first came out. I'm still confused. I watch every interview of Geert's so I understand more than I used to. Thanks for the continued clarification.
Thanks a lor for the explanation. I am really really worried about the forthcoming poo storm... gulp
No point in worrying.
It is what it is.
Prepare as well as you can, socially, environmentally, mentally, physically and immunologically.
Based on the sentence concerning the enhanced virulence of virus in unvaccinated chickens the next sentence seems contradictory, unless I’m not understanding him (which is quite likely). So it’s a false conclusion that unvaxxed humans are at greater risk when confronted with the virus?
Yes it is
SO......do the unvaccinated need to get vaccinated so the vaccinated don't kill us with their leaky vaccines????
Question:. Is there data or research establishing if asymptomatic spread was/is happening. I've never seen anything on this 😳
All the unvaccinated birds died. Are all the vaccinated going to die then?
No one seems to want to answer this question directly. I've been wondering the same thing for quite a while. I'm not a medical professional, but wouldn't a weakened immune system enabling a susceptibility to a Covid-19 variant mean a susceptibility to other pathogens, both viral and bacterial? What happens when a weakened immune system can't fight off pneumonia? Bronchitis? Flu? A toothache or a blood blister? I don't want to believe that such a thing might happen, but I suspect it's going to. Would anyone like to explain why I'm wrong?
Of course, maybe I commented on the wrong question. Are all the vaccinated going to die? I think so. Maybe not all at once, as the human body can take an astounding amount of abuse, but all of the vaccinated will have shortened lifespans and a decreasing quality of life as time progresses.
I would like to hear some discussion re a vaccine-induced weakening of the immune system to other pathogens.
You are forgetting suppression of natural tumor fighting immune cells aka cancer on the way or resurfaced
Yes, I'm very concerned for my stepmother, who fought off breast cancer a few years ago.