Geert, can you please explain to us why NK cell based vaccines will not be vulnerable to immune escape and other problems inherent in the design of current vaccines? Or, if there would be required circumstances for their use in order to prevent the emergence of these sorts of problems? Grateful as always for your insights.
NK cells and T-cells recognise conserved genes in the virus such as the gene which generates the polymerase enzyme necessary for replication, non-structural protein nsp-16 which lies in ORF1a of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Because it's function is so critical it cannot easily change without destroying replication and bringing to an end its own evolution. (As best I understand it. Thank you JJ Couey!)
No, it's more complex. The NK cells have specialized receptors that allow them to directly detect the sort of proteins viruses use to gain entry. NK cells have specialized receptors that allow direct recognition of Spike protein. Importantly, this ability is hardly affected by mutations to the Spike protein, because the NK cell receptors don't look for specific amino acid sequences, but look for broader patterns that are associated with a protein facilitating viral entry through a receptor.
These NK cells should generally also have some ability to deal with other non-COVID respiratory pathogens as well. As a result NK cell immunity against COVID does not have to increase vulnerability to unrelated respiratory pathogens.
I'd like to ask a question, but I leave it to you if you wish to answer it. You may be too busy. [I've been reading your blog :-) ] What you are saying is that NK cells do _not need to go through the cascade of: virus enters cell - broken up - fragments presented on MHC1 at the cell surface - picked up by dendritic cell - which migrates to draining lymph node - stimulates T-helper - activates cytotoxic T cells plus B cells - cytotoxic T migrate back to infection site - kill infected cell. ... Rather the NK cell recognises large or even whole spike on MHC1 (or MHC2 maybe) and kills the infected cell immediately. Do I have this mental imagery anything like correct?
The virus expresses the Spike protein on the surface of an infected cell. That's one of the tools it uses to spread, because expressed the protein on the host cells surface allows it to merge with other cells.
The NK cells can recognize the Spike on an infected cell's surface with their specialized receptors. It does not depend on the MHC molecule, which can only express small peptides, not something as large as the entire Spike protein.
If the NK cell recognizes expression of the Spike protein and finds some pathogen associated molecular patterns on the cell's surface, confirming that the cell is in fact suffering infection by a virus, it starts releasing pro-inflammatory molecules, like Interferon Gamma, that encourage the cell to cleanse itself of viral material by activating its innate immune response. It may also kill the cell, but as NK cells get more mature, they tend to get less eager to kill cells and lean more towards encouraging cells to cleanse themselves.
This is also the problem with the mRNA vaccines, they transfect cells and get them to express the Spike protein, but they do not cause the cell to express pathogen associated molecular patterns that would let the NK cells know that these cells need to be dealt with (thus encouraging the NK cells to proliferate).
This method of is faster than a CD8+ T cell can kill an infected cell, as a CD8+ T cell has to find a MHC molecule expressing the right peptide.
NK cells can also kill a cell when it's covered in antibodies (ADCC), but this is less fast and this process has been hampered by the IgG4 response seen after mRNA vaccination.
Also too the immunity that will be produced is a sterilizing immunity which is more robust and will theoretically kill pathogen (at an early stage of infxn) without stimulating adaptive immune response …the current cov 2 vaccines, when they did work….only neutralized virus via Ab response to S protein…which is suboptimal thereby fostering conditions for virus to escape and outfox the immune system.
Another benefit to geert’s NK work is that it would be more of a universal vaccine platform that could be applied to other pathogen scenarios if is shown to be effective.
Yes, JJC has opened my eyes to the fact that antibodies do not correlate to immunity. Rather they are the rear-guard and clean-up crew of immunity. And injections into the arm actually circumvent 90% of the immune defences to a respiratory virus.
This seems like a typical pharmaceutical approach to a problem. It is not preventative, it is not holistic at least as far as I am understanding it. It seems to be in the same category as antibiotics and antivirals so it may have a place but it is not a substitute to good health; proper eating, proper sleeping, avoidance of artificial foods and food chemicals, avoidance of pharmaceuticals as far as possible, sunshine, exercise, social interaction, meaningful work, service to others, healthy recreation and most importantly alignment with God and with his Son Jesus.
if antibodies do not occur, then vaccines can't work either, then Virologists and Big Pharma with the support of Governments are pushing for depopulation in line with the Globalists who want to stop global warming, by blaming that on the multitude of us and by reducing us, that, they think, will stop it, but since global temperatures were first recorded, our planet has warmed by only 0.02%, so the whole thing is a deliberate lie to exterminate those the Elite call "Human Rubbish" and nothing more.
Dr. Vanden Bossche - how is this not secondary to supporting and strengthening our OWN God given natural immune systems? How will this not become just another means for Big Pharma to own our health and increase our dependency on them as surely they want us to be?
This seems like a typical pharmaceutical approach to a problem. It is not preventative, it is not holistic at least as far as I am understanding it. It seems to be in the same category as antibiotics and antivirals so it may have a place but it is not a substitute to good health; proper eating, proper sleeping, avoidance of artificial foods and food chemicals, avoidance of pharmaceuticals as far as possible, sunshine, exercise, social interaction, meaningful work, service to others, healthy recreation and most importantly alignment with God and with his Son Jesus.
That is a game-changer of an idea!
Geert, can you please explain to us why NK cell based vaccines will not be vulnerable to immune escape and other problems inherent in the design of current vaccines? Or, if there would be required circumstances for their use in order to prevent the emergence of these sorts of problems? Grateful as always for your insights.
NK cells and T-cells recognise conserved genes in the virus such as the gene which generates the polymerase enzyme necessary for replication, non-structural protein nsp-16 which lies in ORF1a of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Because it's function is so critical it cannot easily change without destroying replication and bringing to an end its own evolution. (As best I understand it. Thank you JJ Couey!)
No, it's more complex. The NK cells have specialized receptors that allow them to directly detect the sort of proteins viruses use to gain entry. NK cells have specialized receptors that allow direct recognition of Spike protein. Importantly, this ability is hardly affected by mutations to the Spike protein, because the NK cell receptors don't look for specific amino acid sequences, but look for broader patterns that are associated with a protein facilitating viral entry through a receptor.
These NK cells should generally also have some ability to deal with other non-COVID respiratory pathogens as well. As a result NK cell immunity against COVID does not have to increase vulnerability to unrelated respiratory pathogens.
That is fabulous thank you. Thank you for finding it worthwhile to make this clarification.
I'd like to ask a question, but I leave it to you if you wish to answer it. You may be too busy. [I've been reading your blog :-) ] What you are saying is that NK cells do _not need to go through the cascade of: virus enters cell - broken up - fragments presented on MHC1 at the cell surface - picked up by dendritic cell - which migrates to draining lymph node - stimulates T-helper - activates cytotoxic T cells plus B cells - cytotoxic T migrate back to infection site - kill infected cell. ... Rather the NK cell recognises large or even whole spike on MHC1 (or MHC2 maybe) and kills the infected cell immediately. Do I have this mental imagery anything like correct?
The virus expresses the Spike protein on the surface of an infected cell. That's one of the tools it uses to spread, because expressed the protein on the host cells surface allows it to merge with other cells.
The NK cells can recognize the Spike on an infected cell's surface with their specialized receptors. It does not depend on the MHC molecule, which can only express small peptides, not something as large as the entire Spike protein.
If the NK cell recognizes expression of the Spike protein and finds some pathogen associated molecular patterns on the cell's surface, confirming that the cell is in fact suffering infection by a virus, it starts releasing pro-inflammatory molecules, like Interferon Gamma, that encourage the cell to cleanse itself of viral material by activating its innate immune response. It may also kill the cell, but as NK cells get more mature, they tend to get less eager to kill cells and lean more towards encouraging cells to cleanse themselves.
This is also the problem with the mRNA vaccines, they transfect cells and get them to express the Spike protein, but they do not cause the cell to express pathogen associated molecular patterns that would let the NK cells know that these cells need to be dealt with (thus encouraging the NK cells to proliferate).
This method of is faster than a CD8+ T cell can kill an infected cell, as a CD8+ T cell has to find a MHC molecule expressing the right peptide.
NK cells can also kill a cell when it's covered in antibodies (ADCC), but this is less fast and this process has been hampered by the IgG4 response seen after mRNA vaccination.
Brilliant. Thank you for the insight!
Also too the immunity that will be produced is a sterilizing immunity which is more robust and will theoretically kill pathogen (at an early stage of infxn) without stimulating adaptive immune response …the current cov 2 vaccines, when they did work….only neutralized virus via Ab response to S protein…which is suboptimal thereby fostering conditions for virus to escape and outfox the immune system.
Another benefit to geert’s NK work is that it would be more of a universal vaccine platform that could be applied to other pathogen scenarios if is shown to be effective.
Yes, JJC has opened my eyes to the fact that antibodies do not correlate to immunity. Rather they are the rear-guard and clean-up crew of immunity. And injections into the arm actually circumvent 90% of the immune defences to a respiratory virus.
This seems like a typical pharmaceutical approach to a problem. It is not preventative, it is not holistic at least as far as I am understanding it. It seems to be in the same category as antibiotics and antivirals so it may have a place but it is not a substitute to good health; proper eating, proper sleeping, avoidance of artificial foods and food chemicals, avoidance of pharmaceuticals as far as possible, sunshine, exercise, social interaction, meaningful work, service to others, healthy recreation and most importantly alignment with God and with his Son Jesus.
Sounds like a worthwhile project!
Thanks for sharing this important Discussion Dr Bossche ,immune modulation and Immunosencescence is the way forward
if antibodies do not occur, then vaccines can't work either, then Virologists and Big Pharma with the support of Governments are pushing for depopulation in line with the Globalists who want to stop global warming, by blaming that on the multitude of us and by reducing us, that, they think, will stop it, but since global temperatures were first recorded, our planet has warmed by only 0.02%, so the whole thing is a deliberate lie to exterminate those the Elite call "Human Rubbish" and nothing more.
Dr. Vanden Bossche - how is this not secondary to supporting and strengthening our OWN God given natural immune systems? How will this not become just another means for Big Pharma to own our health and increase our dependency on them as surely they want us to be?
It is different because it is the same vaccine year in year out. No new one every year. Therefore it will be cheap.
This seems like a typical pharmaceutical approach to a problem. It is not preventative, it is not holistic at least as far as I am understanding it. It seems to be in the same category as antibiotics and antivirals so it may have a place but it is not a substitute to good health; proper eating, proper sleeping, avoidance of artificial foods and food chemicals, avoidance of pharmaceuticals as far as possible, sunshine, exercise, social interaction, meaningful work, service to others, healthy recreation and most importantly alignment with God and with his Son Jesus.
Agree will all you say. It's just a case of knowing when to use an NK vax.
Do you mean one needs to keep D levels high to boost NK response?
What levels are we talking about here?
No please tell me. Is it more than 100ng/ml?